does Israel have 'a right to exist"?

I've come to religion from a secular background.

The christian bible has changed a thousnad times over.... I challenge you to find me one torah that differs from the torah of today (I'm talking of original hebrew Torahs and not gentile translations).

you just answerd you own question there mate

explain...

The Torah can only be in Hebrew, gentile translations aren't the Torah they're translations

do you want a shovel mate ?

Andy you're a dense mother fucker!

Judaism is a sacred religion, when we pray we pray in hebrew, the books we read from are in Hebrew... The religion itself is in Hebrew.

The Torah must be in Hebrew, translations are not the Torah.

The reason the Torah hasn't changed over the millenia is because of the strict regulations on scribes - if one single mistake is made then the entire Torah is void and the process has to begin again.... Every Torah is identical and it has been this way since it came into existence.

When you translate a Torah you cannot capute the words, meanings and emphasising of letters (through different sizes, crowns, decoration, etc.) - a letter in the Hebrew Torah may be a slightly different size which creates a new meaning for the word.... These difference cannot be replicated in a translation.

A christian bible of 1500 years ago is very different from a christian bible of today (mainly because the bible itself is a translation and when one translates a text they can change the meaning of words - the vatican tended to just erase sections to compliment their present).

I ask you to find me one orthodox Torah (for it to be jewish it has to be in Hebrew) that differs... You will not be able to as they are all identical.

not only have you just answered your question you have just explained if for me even thought its a translation it's still the same thing just translated

cheers

No it isn't.

Andy I give up mate - you believe you know more about Judaism than myself - which is a bizarre stance to take.

I am telling you - despite what you believe the Torah is only the Torah if it is in Hebrew... Anything else is a copy.

and you accused me of the arrogance of athiests

who wrote the first one joe?
and did it appear fully formed with the creation myth of 7 days written in but this first scribe who was actually writing about biblical days of various lengths?
and has everyone faithfully transcribed it since?



or was it gradualy written and commented on by various humans over centuries, humans who were just as fallible as me

What are you talking about? By Jewish law the Torah must be in Hebrew - its the only language rich enough to capture the depth of the words.

It has nothing to do with arrogance.

Just as Jews cannot eat pork, work on Saturdays or practise homosexuality. The Torah needs to be in Hebrew - what's arrogant about that?

Jews believe that g-d gave the Torah to moses (mouth to mouth) - so it was g-d that wrote it via Moses with the exception, perhaps, of the final eight verses.

Since this first Torah every orthodox Torah has been identical (man doesn't add or detract from it - if this were true one of these scrolls would of popped up - but every new scroll we discover is identical to the ones scribed today).

To my knowledge I have a much better understanding of Judaism than **********.

I am interested by this torah thing. I don't claim to know all about Judaism but what is the relationship of the old testament to the torah? we were always taught that they were more or less the same?

the old testament is the only testament

Religous bigotry aside the old "christian" testament is usually a translation as few christian speak Hebrew... When it is translated it is no longer a divine text and becomes human judgement/guess work.

If christians spoke Hebrew (like all Jews - converts and birthrights) then the texts would be more alike, but even then there exists differences in chapter divisions and the "old testament" also has had several books addded.

well I got it mixed up. I thought the torah was it all. its the first few books and the later human additions and commentaries the bulk of the 'old' testament. I see
Being brought up a christian gave me a pretty one sided view I guess, although I have tried to find out about other religions but the sheer improbability of it all sort of got in the way. After I read bertrand russel I more or less gave up on it. He said that if people WANT to believe something, even if it's the greatest lie in the world they will do and visa versa. And that everybody wanted to believe that death was not the end.

oh and one argument I had with a born again christian which went on till he was reduced to 'well if there is no god then life has no purpose, so there must be one' to which I could only say why did he think there had to be a purpose?

so i guess wether israel has a right to exist boils down in the end to wether you beleive god spoke to moses......

on the fifth day god created man, but thats not true because they evolved from apes, which were created the day after on day six. So if animals were created after humans how did they evolve into humans??

there are people who can scientifically prove many parts of the bible as truth... much of it is a historical document.

besides many religious people believe that parts of religious texts such as the bible are metaphors... alexander mentioned the creation theory being 7 days... what is a day to a divine being? 24 hours? who knows and even the best philosopers and scientists have trouble proving anything and debate has ranged for centuries...

there was also a catastrophic flood around noah's time that flooded a significant part of the world covered in the bible at the time... not the whole planet, but a part of the 'biblical world' if you like... to some thats clutching at straws to others its divine proof... each to there own eh?

so to sum it up a few 'scientists' with 'proof' means very little... theres always someone with another theory round the corner