Iran

the fact that you admit you would put your life on the line for your beliefs is to be admired, but all the same following your above admission, would it not be more pertinent to behave proactively instead of reactively and to enlist right now? so that if such a time does arise you would be in a position to actually offer your country something other than cannon fodder.

You're nuts mate.

Lets look at some of Ahmadinejad latest quotes:

and some earlier quotes:

Yep I'm demonising him...

A life in the military does not appeal... Infact its my personal nightmare.

I would fight for my nation, but only if I felt they needed me... When I make aliyah I will have to serve in the army as every other healthy Jewish immigrant does... I'm not yet ready to make Aliyah.

ah.......but i might be inclined to say not to get caught up in the Israeli propaganda.

My main point would be, that some of the people who are held as heroes of Israel were unashamedly terrorists, which makes a mockery of some of the arguments surrounding this whole 'issue', but even then that is tied up in many other concepts.

Some people believe (me included) that it is far more patriotic to be critical of your own goverment than blindly follow them.

And lets be honest, you have the 4th largest army in the world, no one is going to push you into the sea.

ps. just to kill the thread off, theres no way your going to invade Iran, you'd have to invade Syria, Jordan and Iraq to get there, so thats really not going to happen.

1. So we didn't ignore the camps then.
Resources were spent trying to stop the germans.That happened .You can not realy believe we wanted the camps to continue allied troops were kept in seperate camps next to jewish ones. Allied troops in these camps fed and help jewish inmates survive they risked there lives to do this.How could we know they would not be next.
Alot of U.S troops were jewish why would they ignore them or not bomb them if it would help. I find it insulting to those troops that fought against hitler to say that they ignored the camps that bollocks.

2.Stalin was nobodys friend.
But the russians poeple played a part in saving what was left of western europeans jews untill stalin started his own death camps.
Again Primo Levi showed some russians helped jews return to western europe in the chaos of the aftermath of the war.

3.Why can Isreal not wait and consult other nations before starting the bloodshed. Just stop killing kids its sickening and you lose support for your cause.

The U.S. and Israel are linked all evidence points to this you need there help to survive now.

If oil runs out the iranians can sell there oil for alot money raising funds for an all out attack on israel. With troops and weapons.

If that happen i would support israel and the U.S..

“I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him.” sharon

“Everybody has to move; run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours. Everything we don't grab will go to them.” sharon

“Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don't care.” sharon

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion,

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.


we can all play the qotes game. I think I just demonised the Israeli leadership

Can you name these Jewish terrorists that are held as heroes.. It would make it easier to discuss

I couldn't give a fuck about being patriotic, my only concern is the survival of my people... We've seen enough tragedy. You speak on the subject as a bystander - what happens in the region is nothing but a hobby to you... I feel for every Palestinian that dies - but I'm at a loss with what else Israel can do - we've explored so many avenues only to find our efforts thwarted... Everything you suggest Israel should do - we've already attempted.

Please put forward a realistic suggestion and I'll happily review my perspective.

ps. who's to rule out a sea and air offensive?

1. They did ignore the camps!!!! Its documented - google it... They ignored it because the Jewish life wasn't considered to be of military importance.

2. How did the Russians help the Jews? When we returned to the now soviet states we found our houses occupied and were told we had to either assimilate or die... How is that protecting Jewry? The jewish populations in Soviet states virtually disappeared overnight. What Hitler didn't kill off Stalin did.

3. Why should Israel care about international support? When has the world ever supported the Jew.

There are one or two quotes that are true but 80% of what you posted were Palestinian myths - heres a couple of examples:

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin... he actually said terrorists.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." -- David Ben-Gurion... has been proven to be a complete fabrication

1. It was not ignored the sad fact is that engaging german combat troops would be more important and bring a faster end to the war than tiying up resources getting to the camps.
Thats not caring that making decesions to end the war.


2. Read Wolf is wolf to man by Primo Levi it states examples of russians helping Jews to return to lands outside the Russian occupied zone.

3.The U.S. with $91 Billion dollers of aid.
The allied troops who helped stop hitler.
The polish who helped jews escape the ghetto.

Israel needs to fight it cause with out stooping to killing innocents then you would have more support.

No they weren't.

All jews are israelites and I'm emigrating to Israel in the not to distant future.... We're talking about the preservation of the Jewish people though (or the Palestinian) - you are neither Jewish nor Palestinian.

We offered your proposition with bells on 6 years ago and it was rejected.

No I'm not, this is how Israel would attack Iran.

begin & shamir - i'm sorry joe but they were, read up on the history of terrorism, they feature prominently. i have a degree in international poltics, i know what i'm talking about, and i'm sorry but your wrong.

you offered fuck all at the camp david talks joe, fuck all, the fact that barak and clinton banned the publication of any maps of what was offered speaks volumes.

Googled the Your point on camps being ignored and i came up with this

www.ihr.org/jhr/v05/v05p215_Gleason.html

It supports my argument.

There were Germans that helped Jews escape from the camps, however I wouldn't brand Nazi Germany as having Jewish interests at heart... The same is true for the Soviets.

You're just arguing this point in an attempt to save face, we've established that Jews either assimilated or faced the same horrors they had suffered in Nazi Germany - your initial statement was incorrect.

Israel does not need US aid, this is a left wing myth - every major Israeli/Arab war was fought without US military aid (towards the back of the 60's we started to see tiny traces of support).

The allied troops stopped Hitler for their own interests, how many times must we go over the same points? If the purpose of the war was to save the Jews from the holocaust explain to me why the camps were left to operate? Explain to me why immigration policies were tightened? Explain to me why even after the war the allies subjected us to further persecution?

The answer is because the Jews were of no significant political importance (just as Sudan isn't today).

Are the Poles you speak of the same Poles that burnt my families homes? Chased us out of our villages? Collaborated with Nazi's to weed out Jews? Are these the same Poles that were executed for war crimes against the Jews? Are these the same Poles that prior to the German invasion had a highly anti-Semitic government that practised prejudiced policies?

My family originate from Poland, I know of the horrors they lived through.

James under 400 civilians have died in the Lebanon and while that is tragic figure there is no escaping how low a statistic it is... Why are there no marches against Sudan? China? Congo? I tell you why… because there are no Jews in China, Sudan and the Congo.

Menachim Begin was in no shape or form a terrorist, the Irgun under his command targeted the British and Arabic military. I'm sure you'll cite the King David bombings as an example of terrorist activity - but this is utter tosh as the King David Hotel was used as a base for both the Secretariat of the Palestine Government and British Army Headquarters.

The Irgun were not terrorists they were a defensive unit which splintered from the Hagannah.

Now lets look at Yitzhak Shamir, I'm intrigued as to what terrorist charges you credit to his name, we need only look at who the Lehi targeted to see that they had one clear objective:

assassination of Lord Moyne
assassination attempt against Harold MacMichael
assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte

They strike me as legitimate targets (although I believe count folke should never of been assassinated - he was hardly a civilian).

Just a few of Israel’s efforts for peace:

1967 - Land for peace was rejected by the Arabs as its acceptance would also give legitimacy to Israel.

1993 – Since the Oslo Accords Israel have been striving to meet the goals set out during the talks, the PA was formed (which governed education, police, health, etc.), areas like Gaza have been handed back, etc. Yet the Palestinians haven't given an inch - they're still launching attack after attack.

1998 - The Wye River Memorandum which was never implemented as the Arabs initiated the Al-Aqsa Intifada.

2000 - The Camp David proposition was rejected despite the fact 90% of the west bank, 100% of Gaza and East Jerusalem were offered to the Palestinians.

2001 – The Taba Summit was rejected despite Israel offering the pre-1967 borders (with minor adjustments to the west bank borders as permitted by resolution 242), the right to return and billions of dollars worth of compensation to Palestinian refugees (despite no Arab states offering compensation for the expelled Jewish refugees), Palestinian sovereignty over its airspace, etc.

2002 - Israel accepted working towards the Arab Peace Initiative as long as the Palestinians put an end to their terror attacks - Hamas responded with a suicide attack which they stated was to derail the peace process.

I ask you to show me the Palestinian peace initiatives, but I doubt you’ll find many as the Palestinians do not want peace…

the Allies knew of the Nazi's "final solution" by 1942, as early as June 1944 the US had detailed information about the layout of Auschwitz from Rudolf Vrba and Alfred Wexler (which contradicts your article)

Richard Breitman concluded that prior to 1944 “there was enough generally accurate information about Auschwitz-Birkenau to preclude the argument that the Allies did not bomb the camp because they got the necessary information too late.”

The argument is often put forward that the allies did not want to harm the inmates of these camps - but we need only look at Buchenwald to realise this wasn't the case (the allies showed a total disregard for the prisoners when they bombed the camp along with some nearby factories).

Why is it that pretty much every Jewish historian contradicts the "official" versions of why the camps weren't bombed?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Iran

your fuckin ENGLISH man!!!!! get over your self you an educated person yet you sprout such hate of all things palistine, your either doin it to provoke attention and debate or just plain brainwashed! to be honest the whole middle east area needs to get a grip how many more innocent kids women and men need to die cos you fuckin jews and islamic's are fighting over some fuckin land, what this whole fuckin planet need to do is sort it's self out this is 2006 and yet people are still goin on about what happend to their for-fathers !!! im not sayin forget about the history of your people but to learn from the mistakes that have happened over the span of this conflict,many third gen anglo/islamics/aisan's are now in the way of thinking like westerners due to most being born in the west but still hold some of the thought of their parents(hence resentment) but the fourth gen should be rid of the paranoia still felt in their comunity's. i just wish that someone could drop a common sence bomb on the whole region and they would see with the rich culture and resorce of the area they could live in a common peaceful and fufilled state aslong as they let bygones be bygones , now this might seem a childish view of the situation but it through innocent eye's we should be thinking. seeing as all the adult dialog and bombing the shit out of each other is obviously not worked for the past fuck knows how many years !! FFS man has evolved to learn and learn from it's mistakes this lot are just goin in circles some one need's to jump off the roundabout and hit the breaks soon else we'll all end up in the shit if it kicks off properly